I really like the game mechanics, as in the think big projects menu and how reforming things work, but it seems to me that this game, as far as i see, you can only go on a "neoliberal/completly free market=good/big government=bad government" kinda route, as for example a flat tax rate is considered a "good" and "fair" thing, and decreasing welfare is good and makes people work harder. But i really appreciate the game mechanics as told earlier.
Thanks! Unfortunately there won't be an android version - There is a very small market for historical strategy games as is, so I doubt there would be much interest in a mobile port.
Hi, I am definitely going to do a deep-dive on this. I would love to chat.
I am one of the lucky folk, whom have now seen a lot of these political machination's reach what is deemed to be a societal lifetime (40 plus years), maturity. And potentially the first time it has been historically recorded in various mediums other than by word of mouth and Government literature/Propaganda.
I have helped as a campaigner for one of the "Labour" Parties candidates, circa mid 2000's. Used to fix their computer issues:)
I hope you guys have played some of the older simulations that have been written over the years. "Balance of Power", springs to mind as a title.
I now dabble in Geo Politics as well. Democracy, just being one of many political systems, but the most successful, so far. Sadly some things still can't be resolved just by talking (Not always, but most often, the sharing of resources at the heart of this).
I am finding myself, reflecting hugely again upon this time, 1984 (Pertinent again, with A.I. lurking, possibly now within this year and the Terminator movie being released in 1984, the world being closer to World War 3 and perhaps Armageddon, than any time since the dropping of the nuclear bombs in Japan). I believe this does have a Zeitgeist type name applied to it, and will try and clarify for you.
I have come across and interesting game narrative, that combines language from all the sciences, into a meaningful and inclusive way. This is being attributed to exposure of it's author to the Internet. It has now transcended into the real-world. I love anything to do with Systems Analysis and design. The game was a "Sim Earth", clone, with a few tweaks. I like re-applying information like this to other categories and sciences. Politics, being a very good subject approach, especially as True Science, has been replaced by Political and Corporate interests. (Another discussion topic, but would perhaps make a great starting point for a follow up from you?)
I am definitely keen to discuss this and your game in greater detail with you all. Well done for having the courage to tackle, what has for a long time been one of the 5 things not to talk about in polite conversation.
When your ready and with many thanks for sharing this,
Hi, thanks for your comment! If you have any specific questions or just want to chat about the project you're welcome to friend me on discord: phil_garland
Just read this today. 21st July 24. I will make an effort soon. I am on Itch, due to being in a 'Team' for Christchurch Chapter KiwiJam. Needing to rest, plus a couple of major projects underway at the moment. That I need to keep momentum on. I aim to be at each, testing session at the library. If we don't chat before hand, reach out.
Please take this as humour. He might as well have been, being tied to the "NZ Business Round Table". What is interesting in his private sector work, he was never tied to a successful enterprise and many he failed when at the helm. It is interesting to now see our country being run by someone whom during their tenure was bailed out by the incumbent government and a Finance Minister, that has no educational back ground in most areas of finance. But who's parents are tied to "KPMG". I hope whilst playing this game you noticed within your strategies, re-occurring patterns and select groups of MP's, that were associated with certain historical events in this country. I would like to say the lessons learnt here changed the face of politics in New Zealand, but in reality it was more to do with the terrible financial winds blowing at the time. We now in 2024 are a lot more Global than we were then and our allegiances have changed, but we still seem to be applying a lot of the "Centre-Right" Logic of the time, in a see-saw motion ever since. Now along with some nice to have Politically Correct, vote capturing, Sometimes it's more to do with influence than having the right policies. :) Will we ever see 4 terms again for an incumbent government?
This is a really interesting game, it definitely feels unfinished but I think it has an interesting subtext. I wonder if you've read 'seeing like a state', because to me it seems to criticize the idea that a government can easily fix problems a nation has. It's first brought up in the Think Big segment, where no matter what you do, what projects you build or in what order, the National party can't fix the economy. And then with the neoliberal reforms of Labour, it seems to present these reforms as a universal good that exclusively does good things... at first. You see the improvements in numbers, but you don't see the actual effects it has until after you've done it.
That's not to say I agree with the perspective, but it does seem like a critique of a lot of grand strategy games and that sort of perspective, which makes it interesting.
Thanks for your comment, interesting thoughts. When making Turning Point I wasn't consciously trying to critique anything, though I suppose art has a way of drawing ideas out of the author without them noticing.
Turning Point isn't meant to push any political message, but instead portray the time as best as I could within the medium and my understanding, as well as to prompt New Zealanders to reflect upon the national myths which our nation is built upon.
The game is meant to take place from the perspective of the current government, which I why the Muldoon government viewed Think Big as purely good. I wouldn't want anyone to take this game as an authoritative explanation of who was right and who was wrong, just the perspectives and events of the 1980's.
I am waiting for one of these cognitive biases to show in the first Sentient A.I.. Will it be a negative or a positive?
The problem all of us suffer when involving ourselves in these matters is we merely become commentators with our own narrative. What makes us human.
You touched on some very interesting points. I am not sure how far you have gone back and researched political systems/human behaviours and now even Geo Political Systems.
We forget that Government really is still just a form of "Commerce" and has to function, so. So every single item it is involved in has to have a $ value placed on it. Hard for us to fathom in our day to day micro-economies.
It would have been interesting to see in which direction things would have occurred had National or another party taken the Helm, but applied the same policies.
Democracy is based on Popularity (It doesn't have to be). Which means it is not always the best whom end up leading, but those whom match the criteria. Sadly we ten to vote for the most popular/influential person over the person whom may actually give us what we want.
Democracies greatest weakness (This has been known for thousands of years). And best expressed with following statement, if the captain of your ship does not know how to sail it on his own, you are doomed to sink and things will definitely not be plain sailing)
This is very dangerous as we are seeing in World politics at the moment. Where someone whom is so close to being a Dictator himself, it splitting the vote and damaging the internal structure of the U.S.
The Neo Liberal systems, had started to become entrenched in the U.S. in the 70's and would not go away, technically because it had never ever left (The 1%'s influence).
There was a push on globally in the west to remove, unions (again).
New Zealand for the second time in it's history was almost bankrupt, due to the policies of Mr Muldoon and Mr Birch.
Now take all these things and add individual personalities to them, at the time knowledge was the preserve still, especially at this level of the well off.
And expect people (The voter) to make an informed decision on a subject most of them, probably had very little clue on.
Instead of wasting their vote the will most commonly go with the party they know (even in new faces) or as we can in this country. Not vote (Which is very common everywhere in the Western Democracies), unfortunately this means, now it is not a democracy that is influencing the outcome. Predominately in New Zealand National Elections turnout is still quite high, but in Local body it is quite often below 50%.
It has really been a two-horse race in New Zealand, no matter how far back you go, not forgetting the information is less accurate.
It is easy to write systems for binary information paths, but far more complicated when not all decisions appear to be logical. So a bias can naturally form within any program. I am sure with more fine tuning this title could become quite a great educational tool as well. Especially when on the news the other night. I saw on the book shelf at a creche' "Jacinda Adherns'" book on leadership (Starting them young these days). Here's hoping the society knows how to nurture them from there.
If you really want to dig-deeply. I suggest you do a search on what is known as the "Great Reset" and it's author. To see how we have all got here, if we subscribe to the Western Ideologies.
Following the 1987 market crash, there will be a struggle for power within the Labour party. You need to choose to play as the reformist faction and then win the struggle for power. As the reformists, you win the struggle for power by bringing the traditionalist's influence to be less than 50% and then triggering a vote of no confidence by bringing party support below 20%.
If you do this, you will get a special event where Lange is forced to resign and Roger Dogulas and his faction assume control of the party.
Are you forced to do the Snap election ? Because i didn't and in 1987 i got an event saying labor won again and i got labor party with robert Muldoon as PM. By the way it's a great game
Hi there, Turns out I had left the "Lange Wins the Snap Election" flag on for debugging when building out the game. I've just released a quick update which should have fixed this issue. Thank you and Seno900 for pointing this out.
Just tried the new version and just had the same thing still happen (also even if you still have Muldoon you get the NZBR decisions but they don't do anything)
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I really like the game mechanics, as in the think big projects menu and how reforming things work, but it seems to me that this game, as far as i see, you can only go on a
"neoliberal/completly free market=good/big government=bad government"
kinda route, as for example a flat tax rate is considered a "good" and "fair" thing, and decreasing welfare is good and makes people work harder. But i really appreciate the game mechanics as told earlier.
Amazing game, will there be an android version though?
Thanks! Unfortunately there won't be an android version - There is a very small market for historical strategy games as is, so I doubt there would be much interest in a mobile port.
Hi, I am definitely going to do a deep-dive on this. I would love to chat.
I am one of the lucky folk, whom have now seen a lot of these political machination's reach what is deemed to be a societal lifetime (40 plus years), maturity. And potentially the first time it has been historically recorded in various mediums other than by word of mouth and Government literature/Propaganda.
I have helped as a campaigner for one of the "Labour" Parties candidates, circa mid 2000's. Used to fix their computer issues:)
I hope you guys have played some of the older simulations that have been written over the years. "Balance of Power", springs to mind as a title.
I now dabble in Geo Politics as well. Democracy, just being one of many political systems, but the most successful, so far. Sadly some things still can't be resolved just by talking (Not always, but most often, the sharing of resources at the heart of this).
I am finding myself, reflecting hugely again upon this time, 1984 (Pertinent again, with A.I. lurking, possibly now within this year and the Terminator movie being released in 1984, the world being closer to World War 3 and perhaps Armageddon, than any time since the dropping of the nuclear bombs in Japan). I believe this does have a Zeitgeist type name applied to it, and will try and clarify for you.
I have come across and interesting game narrative, that combines language from all the sciences, into a meaningful and inclusive way. This is being attributed to exposure of it's author to the Internet. It has now transcended into the real-world. I love anything to do with Systems Analysis and design. The game was a "Sim Earth", clone, with a few tweaks. I like re-applying information like this to other categories and sciences. Politics, being a very good subject approach, especially as True Science, has been replaced by Political and Corporate interests. (Another discussion topic, but would perhaps make a great starting point for a follow up from you?)
I am definitely keen to discuss this and your game in greater detail with you all. Well done for having the courage to tackle, what has for a long time been one of the 5 things not to talk about in polite conversation.
When your ready and with many thanks for sharing this,
S F Wadsworth
Hi, thanks for your comment! If you have any specific questions or just want to chat about the project you're welcome to friend me on discord: phil_garland
Hi, Phil
Just read this today. 21st July 24. I will make an effort soon. I am on Itch, due to being in a 'Team' for Christchurch Chapter KiwiJam. Needing to rest, plus a couple of major projects underway at the moment. That I need to keep momentum on. I aim to be at each, testing session at the library. If we don't chat before hand, reach out.
S F Wadsworth
Cell (027) 330 8215
Hello! Just wanted to say that this is was a very fun and interesting experience!
it is nigh impossible to get douglas as pm, imo. ive tried every single run and i still cannot get it to happen, no matter what i do.
nevermind, i just had to try an awful lot harder! awesome!
Please take this as humour. He might as well have been, being tied to the "NZ Business Round Table". What is interesting in his private sector work, he was never tied to a successful enterprise and many he failed when at the helm. It is interesting to now see our country being run by someone whom during their tenure was bailed out by the incumbent government and a Finance Minister, that has no educational back ground in most areas of finance. But who's parents are tied to "KPMG". I hope whilst playing this game you noticed within your strategies, re-occurring patterns and select groups of MP's, that were associated with certain historical events in this country. I would like to say the lessons learnt here changed the face of politics in New Zealand, but in reality it was more to do with the terrible financial winds blowing at the time. We now in 2024 are a lot more Global than we were then and our allegiances have changed, but we still seem to be applying a lot of the "Centre-Right" Logic of the time, in a see-saw motion ever since. Now along with some nice to have Politically Correct, vote capturing, Sometimes it's more to do with influence than having the right policies. :) Will we ever see 4 terms again for an incumbent government?
This is a really interesting game, it definitely feels unfinished but I think it has an interesting subtext. I wonder if you've read 'seeing like a state', because to me it seems to criticize the idea that a government can easily fix problems a nation has. It's first brought up in the Think Big segment, where no matter what you do, what projects you build or in what order, the National party can't fix the economy. And then with the neoliberal reforms of Labour, it seems to present these reforms as a universal good that exclusively does good things... at first. You see the improvements in numbers, but you don't see the actual effects it has until after you've done it.
That's not to say I agree with the perspective, but it does seem like a critique of a lot of grand strategy games and that sort of perspective, which makes it interesting.
Hi Seno,
Thanks for your comment, interesting thoughts. When making Turning Point I wasn't consciously trying to critique anything, though I suppose art has a way of drawing ideas out of the author without them noticing.
Turning Point isn't meant to push any political message, but instead portray the time as best as I could within the medium and my understanding, as well as to prompt New Zealanders to reflect upon the national myths which our nation is built upon.
The game is meant to take place from the perspective of the current government, which I why the Muldoon government viewed Think Big as purely good. I wouldn't want anyone to take this game as an authoritative explanation of who was right and who was wrong, just the perspectives and events of the 1980's.
Cheers again for the comment.
Hi,
I am waiting for one of these cognitive biases to show in the first Sentient A.I.. Will it be a negative or a positive?
The problem all of us suffer when involving ourselves in these matters is we merely become commentators with our own narrative. What makes us human.
You touched on some very interesting points. I am not sure how far you have gone back and researched political systems/human behaviours and now even Geo Political Systems.
We forget that Government really is still just a form of "Commerce" and has to function, so. So every single item it is involved in has to have a $ value placed on it. Hard for us to fathom in our day to day micro-economies.
It would have been interesting to see in which direction things would have occurred had National or another party taken the Helm, but applied the same policies.
Democracy is based on Popularity (It doesn't have to be). Which means it is not always the best whom end up leading, but those whom match the criteria. Sadly we ten to vote for the most popular/influential person over the person whom may actually give us what we want.
Democracies greatest weakness (This has been known for thousands of years). And best expressed with following statement, if the captain of your ship does not know how to sail it on his own, you are doomed to sink and things will definitely not be plain sailing)
This is very dangerous as we are seeing in World politics at the moment. Where someone whom is so close to being a Dictator himself, it splitting the vote and damaging the internal structure of the U.S.
The Neo Liberal systems, had started to become entrenched in the U.S. in the 70's and would not go away, technically because it had never ever left (The 1%'s influence).
There was a push on globally in the west to remove, unions (again).
New Zealand for the second time in it's history was almost bankrupt, due to the policies of Mr Muldoon and Mr Birch.
Now take all these things and add individual personalities to them, at the time knowledge was the preserve still, especially at this level of the well off.
And expect people (The voter) to make an informed decision on a subject most of them, probably had very little clue on.
Instead of wasting their vote the will most commonly go with the party they know (even in new faces) or as we can in this country. Not vote (Which is very common everywhere in the Western Democracies), unfortunately this means, now it is not a democracy that is influencing the outcome. Predominately in New Zealand National Elections turnout is still quite high, but in Local body it is quite often below 50%.
It has really been a two-horse race in New Zealand, no matter how far back you go, not forgetting the information is less accurate.
It is easy to write systems for binary information paths, but far more complicated when not all decisions appear to be logical. So a bias can naturally form within any program. I am sure with more fine tuning this title could become quite a great educational tool as well. Especially when on the news the other night. I saw on the book shelf at a creche' "Jacinda Adherns'" book on leadership (Starting them young these days). Here's hoping the society knows how to nurture them from there.
If you really want to dig-deeply. I suggest you do a search on what is known as the "Great Reset" and it's author. To see how we have all got here, if we subscribe to the Western Ideologies.
I am happy to chat further.
Granddad
Glad to have played and contributed
how do i get roger douglas as prime minister?
Thanks for asking:
Following the 1987 market crash, there will be a struggle for power within the Labour party.
You need to choose to play as the reformist faction and then win the struggle for power.
As the reformists, you win the struggle for power by bringing the traditionalist's influence to be less than 50% and then triggering a vote of no confidence by bringing party support below 20%.
If you do this, you will get a special event where Lange is forced to resign and Roger Dogulas and his faction assume control of the party.
Very cool game super idea, but when is the next update?
tutorial doesn't work
Same issue as Stad, but I did also want to say it's a great game so far. It's very interesting to play, and has a lot of potential.
Are you forced to do the Snap election ? Because i didn't and in 1987 i got an event saying labor won again and i got labor party with robert Muldoon as PM. By the way it's a great game
Hi there, Turns out I had left the "Lange Wins the Snap Election" flag on for debugging when building out the game. I've just released a quick update which should have fixed this issue. Thank you and Seno900 for pointing this out.
Just tried the new version and just had the same thing still happen (also even if you still have Muldoon you get the NZBR decisions but they don't do anything)
i guess the NZBR wasn't developed yet.